gorgias   

Soc. Then rhetoric, as would appear, is the artificer of a

persuasion which creates belief about the just and unjust, but gives

no instruction about them?

Gor. True.

Soc. And the rhetorician does not instruct the courts of law or

other assemblies about things just and unjust, but he creates belief

about them; for no one can be supposed to instruct such a vast

multitude about such high matters in a short time?

Gor. Certainly not.

Soc. Come, then, and let us see what we really mean about

rhetoric; for I do not know what my own meaning is as yet. When the

assembly meets to elect a physician or a shipwright or any other

craftsman, will the rhetorician be taken into counsel? Surely not. For

at every election he ought to be chosen who is most skilled; and,

again, when walls have to be built or harbours or docks to be

constructed, not the rhetorician but the master workman will advise;

or when generals have to be chosen and an order of battle arranged, or

a proposition taken, then the military will advise and not the

rhetoricians: what do you say, Gorgias? Since you profess to be a

rhetorician and a maker of rhetoricians, I cannot do better than learn

the nature of your art from you. And here let me assure you that I

have your interest in view as well as my own. For likely enough some

one or other of the young men present might desire to become your

pupil, and in fact I see some, and a good many too, who have this

wish, but they would be too modest to question you. And therefore when

you are interrogated by me, I would have you imagine that you are

interrogated by them. "What is the use of coming to you, Gorgias? they

will say about what will you teach us to advise the state?-about the

just and unjust only, or about those other things also which

Socrates has just mentioned? How will you answer them?

Gor. I like your way of leading us on, Socrates, and I will

endeavour to reveal to you the whole nature of rhetoric. You must have