republic (books 1 - 5)   

Yes.

Then you must also have acknowledged justice not to be for
the interest of the stronger, when the rulers unintentionally
command things to be done which are to their own injury. For
if, as you say, justice is the obedience which the subject renders
to their commands, in that case, O wisest of men, is there any
escape from the conclusion that the weaker are commanded to
do, not what is for the interest, but what is for the injury of
the stronger?

Nothing can be clearer, Socrates, said Polemarchus.

Yes, said Cleitophon, interposing, if you are allowed to be
his witness.

But there is no need of any witness, said Polemarchus, for
Thrasymachus himself acknowledges that rulers may some-
time command what is not for their own interest, and that for
subjects to obey them is justice.

Yes, Polemarchus--Thrasymachus said that for subjects to
do what was commanded by their rulers is just.

Yes, Cleitophon, but he also said that justice is the interest
of the stronger, and, while admitting both these propositions,
he further acknowledged that the stronger may command the
weaker who are his subjects to do what is not for his own inter-
est; whence follows that justice is the injury quite as much as
the interest of the stronger.

But, said Cleitophon, he meant by the interest of the stronger
what the stronger thought to be his interest--this was what
the weaker had to do; and this was affirmed by him to be justice.

Those were not his words, rejoined Polemarchus.

Never mind, I replied, if he now says that they are, let us
accept his statement. Tell me, Thrasymachus, I said, did you
mean by justice what the stronger thought to be his interest,
whether really so or not?

Certainly not, he said. Do you suppose that I call him who
is mistaken the stronger at the time when he is mistaken?

Yes, I said, my impression was that you did so, when you
admitted that the ruler was not infallible, but might be some-
times mistaken.

You argue like an informer, Socrates. Do you mean, for
example, that he who is mistaken about the sick is a physician
in that he is mistaken? or that he who errs in arithmetic or
grammar is an arithmetician or grammarian at the time when
he is making the mistake, in respect of the mistake? True, we
say that the physician or arithmetician or grammarian has made
a mistake, but this is only a way of speaking; for the fact is that
neither the grammarian nor any other person of skill ever
makes a mistake in so far as he is what his name implies; they
none of them err unless their skill fails them, and then they
cease to be skilled artists. No artist or sage or ruler errs at the
time when he is what his name implies; though he is commonly
said to err, and I adopted the common mode of speaking. But
to be perfectly accurate, since you are such a lover of accuracy,
we should say that the ruler, in so far as he is a ruler, is unerr-