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ing, and, being unerring, always commands that which is for
his own interest; and the subject is required to execute his com-
mands; and therefore, as I said at first and now repeat, justice
is the interest of the stronger.

Indeed, Thrasymachus, and do I really appear to you to
argue like an informer?

Certainly, he replied.

And do you suppose that I ask these questions with any de-
sign of injuring you in the argument?

Nay, he replied, "suppose" is not the word--I know it; but
you will be found out, and by sheer force of argument you will
never prevail.

I shall not make the attempt, my dear man; but to avoid any
misunderstanding occurring between us in future, let me ask,
in what sense do you speak of a ruler or stronger whose inter-
est, as you were saying, he being the superior, it is just that
the inferior should execute--is he a ruler in the popular or in
the strict sense of the term?

In the strictest of all senses, he said. And now cheat and
play the informer if you can; I ask no quarter at your hands.
But you never will be able, never.

And do you imagine, I said, that I am such a madman as to
try and cheat Thrasymachus? I might as well shave a lion.

Why, he said, you made the attempt a minute ago, and you
failed.

Enough, I said, of these civilities. It will be better that I
should ask you a question: Is the physician, taken in that strict
sense of which you are speaking, a healer of the sick or a maker
of money? And remember that I am now speaking of the true
physician.

A healer of the sick, he replied.

And the pilot--that is to say, the true pilot--is he a captain
of sailors or a mere sailor?

A captain of sailors.

The circumstance that he sails in the ship is not to be taken
into account; neither is he to be called a sailor; the name pilot
by which he is distinguished has nothing to do with sailing,
but is significant of his skill and of his authority over the sailors.

Very true, he said.

Now, I said, every art has an interest?

Certainly.

For which the art has to consider and provide?

Yes, that is the aim of art.

And the interest of any art is the perfection of it--this and
nothing else?