republic (books 1 - 5)   

repeat them, but with extreme reluctance; it was a hot sum-
mer's day, and the perspiration poured from him in torrents;
and then I saw what I had never seen before, Thrasymachus
blushing. As we were now agreed that justice was virtue and
wisdom, and injustice vice and ignorance, I proceeded to an-
other point:

Well, I said, Thrasymachus, that matter is now settled; but
were we not also saying that injustice had strength--do you
remember?

Yes, I remember, he said, but do not suppose that I approve
of what you are saying or have no answer; if, however, I were
to answer, you would be quite certain to accuse me of harangu-
ing; therefore either permit me to have my say out, or if you
would rather ask, do so, and I will answer "Very good," as
they say to story-telling old women, and will nod "Yes" and
"No."

Certainly not, I said, if contrary to your real opinion.

Yes, he said, I will, to please you, since you will not let me
speak. What else would you have?

Nothing in the world, I said; and if you are so disposed I
will ask and you shall answer.

Proceed.

Then I will repeat the question which I asked before, in order
that our examination of the relative nature of justice and in-
justice may be carried on regularly. A statement was made
that injustice is stronger and more powerful than justice, but
now justice, having been identified with wisdom and virtue,
is easily shown to be stronger than injustice, if injustice is ig-
norance; this can no longer be questioned by anyone. But I
want to view the matter, Thrasymachus, in a different way:
You would not deny that a State may be unjust and may be
unjustly attempting to enslave other States, or may have already
enslaved them, and may be holding many of them in subjection?

True, he replied; and I will add that the best and most per-
fectly unjust State will be most likely to do so.

I know, I said, that such was your position; but what I would
further consider is, whether this power which is possessed by
the superior State can exist or be exercised without justice or
only with justice.

If you are right in your view, and justice is wisdom, then
only with justice; but if I am right, then without justice.

I am delighted, Thrasymachus, to see you not only nodding
assent and dissent, but making answers which are quite excel-
lent.

That is out of civility to you, he replied.

You are very kind, I said; and would you have the goodness
also to inform me, whether you think that a State, or an army,
or a band of robbers and thieves, or any other gang of evil-
doers could act at all if they injured one another?
No, indeed, he said, they could not.